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As we are being bombarded with doom and gloom on news broadcasts and online news outlets, this session focuses on how journalism is changing to meet the high demand of quick storytelling. How are stories being curated and checked among strong sources before going to air or being posted online? What are the creative storytellers doing to provide thoughtful and meaningful content that can help viewers understand world happenings, cultures and discoveries?
Digital media trends are changing journalism. The changes in media and audiences are compelling journalists to redefine their approach to storytelling. The digital media trends, especially in the form of social media on the Internet and mobile phones, mean that audiences are consuming news stories in smaller, shorter snippets. So how has journalism changed in reaction? Journalists are responding by changing their delivery methods and packaging their stories for social media like Facebook or Twitter on mobile phones. But these trends in digital media are also producing the dynamic new tools that help journalists find new ways to present information and achieve discovery. The panel agrees that good storytelling will still keep the audience engaged, regardless of form, so now the question becomes, “How do you use the new tools to create content in a way that makes someone want to explore?”.
Series Co-Creator, Series Director and Executive Producer, CBC’s Interrupt This Program
Series Co-Creator, Series Producer and Executive Producer, CBC’s Interrupt This Program
Industry Programs Director, Hot Docs Canadian International Documentary Festival
“We know that news is more than just information, it really is a story.”
“This woman in Beirut, she was this traditional journalist working for LBC, covering their government crisis in Beirut, and she thought that they weren’t doing enough to go to denounce that situation, and so she resigned from her job. I just found her covering her story herself and posting it on Facebook.”
“Form and audience. How is form changing in journalism, really where news and stories intercept? What does this mean for journalists, what does this mean for storytellers, filmmakers and TV makers, and actually, what does this mean for audiences? We know that form is changing, but now how are audiences changing? How are they consuming media in different ways, and how are they contributing to the media that we make?”
“The way we build ‘Interrupt this Program’ is rather than telling a long story of 21 minutes, we have four short stories that are intertwined. For us it’s a new way of doing television …[because] mostly [the viewers] are going to watch it on the web, on the CBC Arts site in our case, so we must adapt to this new format.”
“On my desk, there were 25 copy editors for the newspaper. That was our job, right? Now, our team basically is in charge of telling stories on mobile for your phone.”
“I think it’s about telling a story in a more human approach, rather than just a news factual approach.”
“That kind of structure of a page that has existed for hundreds of years, doesn’t exist at all anymore on your phone.”
“You’re facing a distribution module of five products plus 35 channels within those products…it means that we have to actually…rethink how we’re structuring the same stories for each of these different distribution channels. It’s a really, really difficult, it’s exciting but it’s tough.”
“Trust your content, be pertinent and you’ll be there.”
Elizabeth: Yeah, good morning. Thanks so much everyone. Feel free to walk in with your snacks and coffee and we’re going to get started. You may want to … Thank you. Welcome to this session that’s called Engaging Storytelling in Journalism. My name is Elizabeth Radshaw. I’m the director of Industry Programs at Hot Docs. Our fiscal ended about a day ago, so I’m feeling rather fresh and very happy to be here with you and happy to have this conversation about form and audience with the incredible group here that I’ll present.
Erika Tustin, Digital Editor from the Toronto Star, Matt Frehner from the Globe and Mail, Senior Editor Mobile and Interactive and we have Frank Fiorito, Series Co-Creator, Series Producer and EP of CBC’s Interrupt This Program and here’s a co-editor, creator, series director and EP of Interrupt This Program, Nabil Mehchi. This session is a really interesting one and I was excited that it’s a key discussion of Discoverability Summit here, to discuss really how journalism is changing to meet the demand of storytelling and it’s interesting because when we started this conversation off earlier, it was about these 2 areas.
Form and audience. How is form changing as in journalism, really where news and stories intercept. What does this mean for journalists, what does this mean for storytellers, filmmakers and TV makers and actually, what does this mean for audiences? We know that form is changing, but now how are audiences changing. How are they consuming media in different way and how are they contributing to the media that we make. To put it to a little context of where journalism and story intercept and our audiences desire and appetite for it.
Hot Docs did a research 2 years ago and we asked audiences when they’re not at our festival, how are they consuming documentaries and why are they consuming them in whatever form and expression, not just the long form as we think of it short and other documentary factor content. They said it was primarily for technology reasons. They were accessing this point of contact and I think that’s a very interesting point to branch off of as to why audiences are engaging in these stories.
When we look at form and how its shifting these days, we know that news is more than just information, it really is a story and the form is shifting whether being social media feeds, whether being short form content and on broadcast, specific CBC announcing short form docs and other new outlets that are coming out and Hot Docs itself is partnering with New York Times for art filming [inaudible 00:02:54] to create digital form content from their feature length films.
Know that form and all these discussions of storytelling and journalism is shifting as well. So when we begin this concept and conversation of form and audience, we are going to ask these questions, to really try to get a sense of understanding how has journalism and this form changed over the past years and do we think it’s changed. I think that’s an interesting point to start a story. Where do you feel your audiences have changed and where do you feel the content, the form has changed.
Frank: I think the format is faster, the pace of stories is always not faster because we mostly have had digital and television, so it’s changing into the way we’re telling stories. The way we build Interrupt This Program is rather than telling a long story of 21 minutes, we have 4 short stories that are intertwined and for us it’s a new way of doing television and I mean it’s not revolutionary we’re not the only ones doing this, but I think now it must be shorter, self-contained and because they’re going to watch it on television, but mostly they’re going to watch it on the web on CBC Arts site in our case, so we must adapt to this new format.
Erika: Yeah, I agree that the template, the way that you package and put together the material has changed, has changed to adopt the delivery method problem. I.e. probably more tabloid, more social medial etc. It’s the foundation, the foundation of recording what the stories were meant to deliver to you. I think it’s actually improved in this digital era and now we have publishers that are held way more accountable for what they’re covering, what they’re saying, what they’re not covering because you have an open dialogue with the public instantly at your fingertips. There really is no excuse not to give a story, not to give a story right.
Matt: The audience has completely changed. I started 9 years ago as a copy editor. On my desk, there was a 25 copy editors for the newspaper. That was our job, right? Now, our team basically is in charge of telling stories on mobile for your phone, package the content for your phone and the audience, they never pick up the paper whatsoever. They’re coming to us in search for social, and now we don’t even think about desktop that much either we mainly focus on mobile because now more than half the time Canadians spend online is on the phones, right?
Just this weekend we had a story on Fort McMurray, basically a mobile first story, here is what’s happening, here is what’s going on, here is the really, really nutsy bolts of what’s happening out there and 80% of traffic comes from search.
Those are new people coming to the Globe website to find that information. They’re searching, I need information given to me and we had to say, we are going to serve you with this really particular way to turn that story that resonates with you as a search reader not a newspaper reader.
Elizabeth: You’re bringing in 2 really interesting topics here. One is really about what are the, what I call the feed syndrome, which is, as you look into your feed and things that you’re interested in are being fed to you. If you’re clicking on the new stories, more new stories come to you or if you’re clicking on people’s Facebook posts that are posting on Fort McMurray as I said, more stories are feeding into you. There is this curation aspect that is in one thread, but the second thread is that you’re referring to as well I think is interesting to this conversation is social journalism versus just journalism and this is an interesting point thing to explore those 2 notions.
The one being the social journalism into the question of form changing. Whether be through reading on Facebook or Twitter, you have real folks reporting on the news faster that it essentially comes out. I think you were talking of the stories, images from Fort McMurray being on Facebook. How in terms of journalism, these non-traditional news sources affect storytelling.
Matt: Yeah, it completely affects it. I mean the Fort McMurray is the one that’s online and it’s basically, the reader view is, everybody is out there producing journalism in a sense because they’re saying, “Here is what’s happened.” Which was the goal of the newspaper or the news broadcast for decades was, what happened today. We can’t say what happened today anymore because that’s already being covered by people who are there on the ground.
You have to get the context, you to say, in a sense curate it, pull it together and figure out what the most important pieces are, give the context, why does this matter, what’s the response across the country been? What does this mean for policy? What does this mean for the world status? What does it mean for the economy here in terms of coverage? It really, the great thing about it is that it pushes us to do that extra like, so what. We are there to say so what, we are not there to say, such and such happened today.
Erika: If you ignore the Reddit, the Facebook and Twitter and people who are actively contributing to that. You do so at your own peril and this to me is like an evolution of dismissive journalism. That’s been around for at least 5, 10 years, whether it was in long format or people were self-publishing and a publisher for taking advantage of that particular material and in some cases empowering into what cover areas of news that they couldn’t tell anymore, and they didn’t have access to anymore.
In this case, we’ve got this wide network of people all over the world who are telling you what’s happening right in front of their eyes. That’s why our responsibilities are saying, seeing as we acknowledged it, what are we going to do now with it? Finding verification is huge, huge … Is a huge responsibility in news rooms and publishers have and one we take quite seriously, but again, we are being delivered this material in order to then inform our reporting and it’s something to certainly take advantage of.
Elizabeth: When we are thinking about how story brings in to journalism and journalism is moving into story. When you look at content that’s being delivered through our social feeds, you are mentioning a bit more how reformatted content is coming into our space. What does that mean for you guys as television producers, understanding how the shows that you’re making that are of a certain format, but then understanding how to bring them into where the eyes are, so audiences can find them.
Nabil: It’s an exciting time. I think you mentioned the Short Docs initiative at CBC, the New York Times. I think stories, I think the 2 fields are coming closer to each other, the lines are getting blurred. Like at one point I think it’s about telling a story in a more human approach rather than just a news factual approach like the about a year ago, the New York Times did a series on how ISIS is recruiting around the world.
We’ve all seen the news stories but they took a more human approach and I think that video went viral. It was 3 friends, one jihadist and it was 2 friends that were explaining how one of their friends joined ISIS but it gave you such a ground level approach to the crisis, just by showing you that these are regular guys that are trying to figure out their situation.
Living in Cairo, living in Egypt and the Greece situation and also how one their friends just got completely indoctrinated into this organization. I think that this it’s a very exciting time we’re the storytellers and journalists are coming together to change the narrative …
Frank: The civic producers, it’s great because we have multi platforms. We have the TV show but you have Facebook and Twitter and that’s for at first just to promote the show and it first reflects as a TV producer is to be weary of this social media. I was speaking to a producer yesterday and she was telling me, “I don’t like posting my content on Facebook.” I told her, “No, just go post it online.”
This is where we are going. You must embrace it and we had successes at Interrupt this program like we got some post, some digital post on Facebook that original post wasn’t even a person and that’s way bigger than the ratings that we have in CBC. The resistance is really… It’s futile. We must embrace it and be present on Facebook and Twitter.
Elizabeth: I agree but I’m wondering when it comes to these different feeds and our social feed is also about advertising in the end. How do we address and I’m going to use this term quite loosely but the media literacy of our audiences to determine the difference between what is advertising and what is story?
Frank: I think it’s the … we need a brand that’s very powerful. For instance, our show or the brand, is not Interrupt This Program, is not my small, small production company in Montreal. It’s CBC. We carry this around and curios there’s lots of information on social media but I think a strong brand like CBC is something very attractive and …
Matt: The New York Times partners with documentary [inaudible 00:12:47]. They’re putting their brand behind that and then it amplifies it and also gives it that verification, that’s the power of advertising.
Erika: To stay on the news side Facebook and Twitter actually quite good to work with in a way that they have a sense of guidelines themselves as a way that publishers are going to present that material to the readership and so you have to attach very strict labeling and identification what this content is. The trick [inaudible 00:13:14] becomes that sideways assumption that’s either search through material that Toronto Star publishes on the native side.
We put labeling and different disclaimers around things but it’s always that conversation internally to say, either we don’t need to recognize what sponsor means, we don’t think the reader recognizes what partner means and we’re constantly searching for ways to really clarify that. Again either going back to the trusted brand in a way that we have an awareness of it. We’re conscious of it. We’re not there to trick anybody with it.
It’s just part of our business model, however there might be other publishers that don’t adhere to the same rules I would say but it is an evolution of continuous conversation because it isn’t always apparent that going back to a reader, having loyalty to trusted brands and have established themselves as reputable sources of information I think really important to me.
Elizabeth: A brand that interweaves that notion of creation and discoverability are completely connected and whether via social media feeds or being discoverable. In other forms and like our private platforms, that’s where you’ll still need to come back to those notions. When we’re talking about form and an audience and in literacy we’ve talked about what’s happening in Canada that as producers there’s this great question here. Do you notice that perhaps in journalism, this is a regular thing, are interacting in different ways, so the countries that you’ve been travelling and covering with Interrupt This Program?
Nabil: Yeah. Like we shot in Ukraine and Haiti and Colombia. What’s striking when you arrived there is that there is no free press and the press is owned by Oligarchs in the case of Ukraine or big families in the case of Columbia. There is a big mistrust towards the traditional media then that’s very striking and just to put you in context with our series, we employ lots of young local journalist that work in a strict circle as researcher and its striking to see that yes they are journalist but they’re also activist and extremely outspoken and critical of their own government.
That’s I think very different from what we have here in Canada and what’s interesting is that there, the traditional media are not interested in these young journalist. They may not hire them, they’re not interested in any of the stuff. If I’m doing research for a show, the first reflex is going to local media to find stories and the characters that you found, most of them weren’t even covered by the national media.
We found that to fix that there is sources on the ground, that’s a big difference. At the same time they’re suing the technology to … like the most striking example in Kiev There is this crowd funded news organization that was started by freelance journalists who were independent journalist who were fed up of not getting the un bias reports on TV so they just started their own online organization called [inaudible 00:16:28] TV and it grew from this small … it was like in a basement of someone’s house where they would just post these stuff online during and now they’re very prominent news organization that most of the country goes to just get the real deal of what’s happening in the country and its mostly a mix of seasoned journalists and young go-getters that are going out there shooting the piece, editing it themselves and just putting it online.
Elizabeth: As a distress for certain curatorial voices shifted in regions, new ones came up. This is fascinating that they were crowd funded and crowd supported it reinforces again all of the things that we experience as journalist and Storytellers that the democracy and media through our social media connection is what drives these interests. That’s very fascinating to see how those home grown voices come up. Do you feel and see some of these things happening in Canada as well, where there are new sources of curation or?
Nabil: I don’t think we are experiencing this in Canada like [crosstalk 00:17:46]. I think it’s a good thing but I wonder if you’re seeing young journalists I think there is a lot of people who we work with on the Canadian side. You have no journalist going out there and saying we need to make our mark so I’m going to go to Kiev and find good stories and just try to get some commotion in the internet to be interested in this.
The government just flipped Colombia that I notice that you know what? There’s stuff happening in Colombia and with the peace talks, I’m going to be the first one there so whenever there is a story I’m already packaging it to somewhere out there.
Elizabeth: Do you think that they are working differently with news outlet to help get those stories out or working through more the traditional intelligent and documentary funding areas.
Frank: [Inaudible 00:18:41] and we even met with some journalist that this woman [inaudible 00:18:47] in Beirut, she was this traditional journalist working for LBC covering their government crisis in Beirut and she thought that they weren’t doing enough to go to denounce that situation and so she resigned from her job. I just found her covering her story herself and posting it on Facebook. Of course sending the stories to big news organizations but the other thing that matters is in their own hands but we don’t want this in Canada. We were just talking about an experience elsewhere.
Elizabeth: It’s an important and insightful way to see how the form of journalism and storytelling is shifting in different regions but also what it dictates to us is about audience consumption. The demand of accessing this information wherever it comes especially from a trusted source or from a source that is growing trust because the stories that they want to see covered aren’t being covered in traditional media, and then she had a great following on Facebook and it continued to grow, which reinforced her to continue to do that work.
This is the crux of this interception around great storytelling and around reporting and wanted to bring you back to understanding more about those audiences in Beirut or Colombia were mostly accessing these again through mobile I imagine, and of course maybe through either desktop or et cetera, but what does it mean for our audiences consuming through different devices, whether it be mobile or desktop and I know that both of you guys have experienced whether it be at the Toronto Star, at Globe and Mail about the difference of content for mobile versus content for a newspaper.
Matt: Yeah, we look at how traditionally when you assign a story for print it’ll be laid out and need to have that print vocabulary of those page of a photo and a big headline and a chart and a caption or whatever, like how to scan that and a few bits and pieces of that story and then mainly recapping through it with that kind of structure of a page that has existed for hundreds of years, doesn’t exist at all anymore on your phone
We actually need to strip away or how to think about the story in a linear way, what really you need to do is try to keep the reader’s attention on your page as they’re going through it, because if they get bored they’re going off to something else. Going off to Snapchat and moving on to Twitter. You want to say, keep the reader engaged with the where or where to run this story or the images of charts you’re putting into the story in a way that gets them to stick around and hopefully read more.
Erika: Yeah, and you can add even another layer of complexity to them in a way that when you talk about mobile, and you’re talking about a traditional article page for a mobile device, but then Snapchat is a valid point. The top is publisher is where you … I can see publishers dealing with mobile products, Tablet products which from my perspective, at least in my organization they’re all really unique amongst themselves and have different strategies and outputs put around them and then you add the layer of mobile of social and Snapchat.
A lot of the different areas in which, in order to grow audience, publishers have to be present. Then you’re facing a distribution module of 5 products plus 35 channels within those products. It just grows and grows and grows, and so those we have those real diagonal challenges in terms of storytelling having served those particular properties with a suitable story telling format any in order to drive the audience and then the question being monetization like that. It’s just …
Matt: Basically. Facebook, Google, Apple, Snapchat and all having with their own distribution platforms. It’s incumbent on the journalist or the newsroom to tap into the content floor, so now we’re on not only saying we’re going to design the story for the phone, we’re saying we design the story for the phone, for Facebook instead or for Snapchat and by including if they were going to design it for Google and how this Google said, “We’re going to give extra credits to stories that are designed [Inaudible 00:23:16] they put together.” Which is a technology problem.
Nabil: I think that this is where TV makers and filmmakers come into play as well because it’s really the key is editing, like video editing. I’m an editor by train that’s why I believe in that. Look at the way the Guardian packages their pieces, look at the way [Inaudible 00:23:55] Plus does their pieces online. Their eye grabbing text is huge color and using graphic is huge.
I think there’s a new learning curve that’s happening where people are finding new ways to present information in more like the, subtitling is now huge because they know it’s going to be a news feed and probably not that, you’re not going to see the audio, but the minute you start reading the text you’re like, “Oh, this looks interesting.” Then you click on it
Matt: Yeah, to give an example of how video has completely changed for your phone and for Facebook, if you’re scrolling through your feed, and you don’t have headphones in, and then the text comes up, and you see it and you’re often watching a video with no sound, it’s hard, so it’s captured plus images, plus images, plus striking visuals , but not necessarily about the sound
Erika: It’s again adapting to storytelling for the device and the platform, because otherwise there’s so many video out there, the expectation that people are going to stop what they’re doing, put their headphones on and play the audio, we’ve lost about half of that audience.
Frank: What’s interesting is that, even us the dinosaurs of television, we can do it. We did it for Interrupt This Program, so yes we can adapt to these new technologies.
Matt: Did you repackage in smaller video chunks with [Inaudible 00:25:09] or did you do 2 or 3 little chunks and subtitle.
Nabil: It was also extra stuff, extra footage that we planned to shoot ahead, so it was material and content that’s feeding into the show as well, because, let’s face it, a half hour of television is 22 minutes it’s not enough to tell the story of 4 artists around the world, so it’s extra material
Frank: Real stories it’s how we remember 10 years ago when thinking of the digital strategy is a good thing to note. I’m going to show some behind the scenes of this show but no one cares about that anymore Its real stories that we put on Facebook, on Twitter. Yeah.
Elizabeth: What’s interesting is either of these are tighter, shorter, maybe they’re one minute or minute 40, that are grabbing people’s attention and how do you feel that the click through ability to get to the deeper programming, is it … Do you feel like this program and how it’s driven, the data mission that’s it’s driven to the shows.
Frank: Yes there is. If it was a correlation when we were posting things on Facebook and Twitter that before, like a week before the broadcast of this show where we got lots of traction on social media. The ratings were better. Yeah, it literally drives people to the show, and I know we say that creates community with all, but it does. It’s true.
Elizabeth: It’s more if takes just the numbers reflect.
Nabil: That’s particularly good. That’s a very good example because if we bank on immigrant communities in Canada, because huge Ukrainian Canadian community and huge Haitian Canadian community near again the Haiti episode was the highest rated because it got such word of mouth from Haitian Canadians living in Montreal, even like we got write ups in [Inaudible 00:26:55]. I think it’s like the shows straight out also by the artist communities that are included in all these different cities, like people were actually watching it through ABN which shouldn’t say [Inaudible 00:27:08]
Elizabeth: I think it’s these examples of the celebration of the form kind of in all its expression, so even these shorter expressions, that are 1 and 2 minutes into longer form that are 22 minute episodes or as we’re seeing in a field division or other platform are bringing in the indignant into the 7 minute format. Those were similar to these of course coming in on the gardening and all the times autos.
Frank: I just want to say something that we’re talking about platforms, and I call this the pipes and I know that where is the content going? What’s fascinating is that we live in a world where we have so much access to diverse content, and that’s great. As a TV producer you know, I’m blessed. I think what we’re seeing right now is there’s a thirst for compelling new content. I think it’s the bilinguals that are forcing us you know on television to bring that on TV. I think it’s great. For discussion about the platforms if it’s just, it’s relevant of course, but good content will always make its way
Matt: Yeah, this content is just, can you package it into a slightly a different way that takes into account the technology that people are using] story telling is there people want what that [Crosstalk 00:28:31].
Nabil: Short form is feeding the long form I believe, when it’s teasing for you to see the slightly longer piece the more in-depth, more researched that took a longer time to edit. There’s also something good about short form is that there’s a bit more freedom because the confines of television still are a commercial break at a specific time. The short form you can do a 2 and half minute and basic would be 3 minute and 10 seconds. There’s this slightly more freedom editorially and physically in editing and going through.
Erika: Also if the stories can be quite satisfying for you when they’re told at the time that they need and we see that at the festival and the work we’ve been doing writing short form that we can say that we don’t we need a feature length film, that the story actually really just gets there in 12 minutes or 6 or 18 and that is there’s a satisfying expression of the story. We’re supporting networks especially when the audiences are there for it, online and also any of the places so we see that working.
It takes at that from my perspective in the newsroom, I think it starts almost 10 years. Digital has really brought a discussion of long form to the fore front that it’s always been the skill of a reporter to say I should be telling you this information, after [Inaudible 00:30:01]. It doesn’t mean that it has to be 100 Inches. It doesn’t mean that it had to be 20 inches. You’re supposed to evaluate the story and give it a space that it deserves.
That question that’s always lingered is to whether long forms may go away, never really bought into this motion because I think long from was overused at a certain point and maybe still is, technology and delivery methods have certainly again shaped that and brought the discussion to an apex. If a story needs this amount of space it will get that amount of space and at least from the data that I received, we’re seeing mobile consumption 50% of the time more on those longer pieces that’s just where it’s been growing and growing for the last little while.
Matt: People are getting used to reading on their phones so there’s no problem spending 10 minutes, 15 minutes to read along we see it again and again.
Elizabeth: That’s why we buy the paper, that is if they only had there has it was Richard [Inaudible 00:31:02]
Erika: That is true, but the paper is getting smaller
Elizabeth: Yeah, this is true. When … This is a question I want to take a lot of time on because I think it’s the notion or perhaps the topic of the conversation here at discoverabilities. What steps to each would you take to really ensure that you’re content is being discovered by viewers or readers? We’ll take it in terms of the things that’s going to drive a line through dialogues. What is it exactly that you’re doing to ensure that that content gets that it’s discoverable?
Frank: I’m going to say something that well sounds maybe just simplistic, but stories that are new, stories that hasn’t been told and good content I think is the key.
Elizabeth: Best ingredients
Frank: No seriously. I think it’s where we’re going. Maybe I’m a little bit over optimistic, but I’ve been there 10 years ago in television. We were all doing the same thing. We were doing format TV, desiring to be in the [Inaudible 00:32:03] or we were all doing the same thing. Now, it’s so diverse and there’s no excuse you just … You have this liberty to just create content and get it out there. I think that is the key to be discovered.
Matt: The issue is that it’s the headline that can make or break for us. We spend so much time optimizing what’s the best headline for this for story, what’s the best headline for this social. What are the tweets that can write off this long [Inaudible 00:31] easy. We spend a lot of time … It used to be … Okay when a publicists has 5000 word features and we would put out and people would love it.
Then I guess they’re trying to [Inaudible 00:32:39] people would study long from and no, people like what we’re just going to tell them why, why do you? Why should we care about this story? That’s the key of writing the right type of social promotion. Using the right types of animates using an animation or whatever just like there were those tricks. They’re tricks, but it’s like how do you get some to click and then deliver on that app because when you’re seeing it in your feed, you’re seeing holistic user alerts.
How do you phrase something in a way that makes someone want to explore?
Nabil: Our counterpart to this as TV makers it’s the demo. To us, everyone with me when we decide to do the show, we just feel that that Beirut aren’t dying, state with family and all the different fortunes in Toronto was what happen to be in Beirut. We shot something in 3 days and we ended up with a 22 minute highlight. We’ve put together 2, 2 minutes demo that sold the show.
I have a friend who is doing a documentary that was commissioned at hot dog last year and she put together a demo using YouTube clips. It looked like she went and shot in Bolivia and Japan and France. We have incredible tools at our finger tips that can help us get discovered. That can help us sell our ideas, because it’s more than just saying, “I have this great ideas.” Like how are you going to put together is another thing.
Elizabeth: The packaging in the market is great. We talk a lot about in funding films is where you’re leveraging for a house that’s like the dragon’s den in film finance. You’ll hear a story being pitched and the title just does not match the story. It’s the first thing the commissioner say which is like I will actually watch this film but you have to change the title and share exactly what it’s about. I’m just thinking when you’re titling work, there’s so much content out there. How do you compete with free dancing cat videos?
Matt: I love dancing cat videos.
Elizabeth: Yeah, we all do. Video and other escapes as in Games of Thrones and wonderful things within the media journalists take and factual like a documentary let’s say. There’s so much attractive content, but how does it … How do you curve it to push on … We hear about packaging, we hear about titling, we hear about when we represent to the work for funding and then the work to audience? What else are we doing to ensure the content is discovered by audience?
Erika: I … From my perspective anyway, if seeing changes within my organization to recognize the change in audience behavior, so you know that the shift away from direct traffic to your website and how then for producing is great content which we feel is great and we stand behind 100%. How are we going to reach our shifting audience being a view audience? I see traditional publishers have been slow to adopt this, but I see the changes now in a way that we’re being very careful in delivering in terms of evaluating all distribution channels that are available to us.
That would be typically social media as well as partnering with influencers in communities who are already basically doing great things and have these niche audiences that we see some really key partnerships with. As well as just the invention tools. They’re tools that are really great tools whether algorithmically based or ones that can actually assist with template and storytelling that were out there and they’ve understood some really, really great deeds and again really traditional publishers just to be opened and positioned to take advantage of all those things are really where our minds really need to be at.
Nabil: Broadcasters I think we mean the access to broadcasters has never been, I mean so, it’s not easy, but it’s out there like the hot dogs of this world, but it also means you go there as an independent producer and you meet with Netflix and Vimeo and Pivot it’s… That’s also very exciting. You don’t have to be an established production company to actually go out and present something.
Elizabeth: Those was larger platforms have become a little more accessible for content creators and it’s just similar being as we’re seeing is that’s … The accessibility platforms by soliciting journalists. Although, everyone is vaguely doing their due diligence to make sure that the content that gets out there is verified. It’s interesting because when it comes to this notion around discoverability, it’s something that certainly at the festival I was trying to hear it too. There’s effort in this as well.
We really understand that our brand is the discoverability factor as a curator for this so that maybe never put it this way, you know your market for a documentary. It may be short, it may be long, but you don’t really know which one till you can rely on a brand of hot dogs to be able to help you find it and whether that be your partnerships with iTunes where we have a store and we happen to be less in Canada and the US in audiences comparing content that way or other places would it be Rogers On Demand, Bell Fibe et cetera.
Then it helps to draw different discoverability elements so those partnerships, those curators, those creative communities that you tap into as a content creators or as a platform itself are really critical to reaching those key communities and audiences.
Matt: Yeah, so we deepened on a lot of recording as to start to see as we’re reporting on [Inaudible 00:38:35] in file last year and a half or so and one thing that was key with that was that really we started as far as we put together advisory panel experts in the community and in government, to help us understand how to tell that story better. Then when we were publishing pieces of that story, we reached back out to them and we would say, here’s a piece that would be, that we think your community you can if you would help us get it to the right people.
We have a little heart to the stories that get a huge amount of traffic to Facebook and it’s not the traditional audiences, it’s a case, it’s the aboriginal community sharing that story along those preliminary booth and say, this is the story it’s important to us and we want to help amplify it. It’s the best really I think you could have such tips like finding those influencers or other grads to help promote your work.
Nabil: Discovering new platforms like you would be at ease doing the interactive dog section that we have found is like the least known, but it’s the most powerful high wise which is that rule is discovering that you could tell your story in a totally different way like a film maker friend that did ports the gate rule went and shot, shot, shot thinking he’s doing a feature on a dog and yet we got to say no we can do this interactive portal where people can watch these different stories separately in like the most beautifully designed interface.
Elizabeth: They’re dynamic yeah. Dynamic in the phases that … Certainly different form and expression of storytelling that is we are happy to celebrate, but it’s still I think one that’s struggling to find audience.
Matt: Absolutely. It’s really tough to find audience for that stuff. Especially in the technology report that is really difficult to guide the reader through. We have a lot of trouble finding partners, so harnessed the New York Times partners to get enough while the audience look for that content.
Elizabeth: Especially where we see and I know this is not direct on topic. It is another expression of storytelling could be the odd and how we access the spaces because many news media platform have become utmost for PR whether the publication is in New York Times and giving all this out to people and actually using it as a place for discoverability for this new form of storytelling.
It has a lot of deep journalistic principles and documentary principles, within it… We certainly have to do our best to expose audiences to this work, but I think I agree it’s the translation of seeing the ubiquitous crossword or just chatting with friends like, hey, have you [inaudible 00:41:14]? Or just it hasn’t quite saturated in that level and I wonder why you think that is, when we have all this different ways and [inaudible 00:41:24] to deliver this content.
Matt: VR’s are really difficult because people don’t have the tools or technology to watch. The New York Times want to [inaudible 00:41:34]. I think it was GP that … What’s the name of the audio software, [inaudible 00:41:40] to sponsor shipping a Google cardboard It went to every single Prince subscriber and that’s millions of millions of millions of dollars.
Elizabeth: Subscribers have [inaudible 00:41:50]
Matt: Yeah. They’re like a puzzle box industry for this developers and subscribers. You have to pay for the [inaudible 00:41:56] how do you get that to pull readers in a way that it gets people to actually download it and look at it a short of partnering with a corporation to get the technology out there. It’s really … It’s difficult.
Erika: Yeah. I think I have to say it was in a Google summit. I think it was 2 weeks ago at the Intercom. [Inaudible 00:42:22] spaces as it does end itself pretty well to some story telling opportunities and even currently I think it is that the VF view. The YouTube video is not accessible by iPhone yet so I think it’s good that we’re having this discussion because if you can talk to Google or YouTube, they will tell you that in 2 years from now they expect to … Move everywhere.
For publishers to get them on ground level we still at least do some experimentation and identify with those challenges are. It’s an important discussion we have …
Nabil: I think also when you start by the VR, we all are trying to get that immersive experience. Everybody wants to create that experience where you feel you’re there and I think traditional documentary has been doing it for a long time. Right now it’s, you’re right. It’s just getting that technology to be so easily accessible and its doing like the … There’s a gaming company that we know works with Montreal that it’s beginning to touch on the possibilities of what VR documentary because you’re right.
It’s about creating the most personal experience possible for the audience.
Matt: Yeah there is such a new form like what they’re doing in the [inaudible 00:43:34] our project. We took it out to demo with a bunch of developers and technologists in HR and wanted them to be everybody reports to our project. There were also 5 foot 10 to 6 feet tall, right? I think that shouldn’t be a problem. Designers this immersive experience for them it becomes [inaudible 00:43:59] in the space and we’re delivering the trial our score for 10.
She said that as soon as she put the headset on, she felt like she was floating. It was a completely discombobulating experience. It broke the immersive feeling for her it actually felt nauseating. There’s this whole … All these studies about how people’s physiology reacts different to it. There’s no idea even how to use the technology then you have to try to reinforce the story telling. That was actually really humbling. The feedback you’re luring them.
The default type of this experience so that didn’t feel quite as difficult for some people to use it, but things you would never know or even think about before you actually put it on people’s heads and try to …
Elizabeth: Before is still any of it. Mason an exploratory space plan. It is exciting. We have discussion on how to put VR on trial and really designing like it’s going to be the new next trendy thing to save documentary. Do you still have Facebook is over, but I think the crux of it is that we will be faced again, again and again with the dynamic new technologies of that affect story and then engage audience and as creators of platforms and as creators of this work, our responsibility to these forms is to explore them, to separate them, but also to make sure that its point where we’ll all be upset to come to the end is that like stories came.
A great VR experience only exists if there’s a strong story and Interrupt this program, engage us all to season 2 and 3 because each episode as well and each little short … You’re pushing though into social had a strong story behind it and this 2 publications have stayed at the forefront of readership because of the story that they engage, with so we’re very proud of ourselves for having a very positive panel before we jumped on board and say story is still … Is the root of it and to really drive discoverability comes into story and then good creation to drive that. It feels like we’ve covered a lot about … Yeah. Go on.
Frank: [Crosstalk 00:46:17] it’s really optimistic that story day we will survive. Television will survive I believe. We know that it needs to be funded. I don’t know that it [inaudible 00:46:29] producer, but because we sometimes think that because we’re moving slowly towards stories, towards fascinating stories digital that because of technologies we can just go and hire young journalists and he’s got a shorter story and post it on Facebook. It’s going to be a success. You need to have power, you need researchers, and you need Directors It just doesn’t happen like that.
Elizabeth: This is the notion that the consumption model and the business model are not quite aligned. It’s something that you have brought up a little bit earlier. What do you in terms and Matt feel free to explore this ideas that we’re not about to dissect the business model for online media on this panel, but it’s another… That’s the afternoon session …. In short term, how do we as platform creators dealing with this issue?
Matt: At the globe I’ll just say that we’ve recognized that advertising is not going to save us and that is actually very few story tellers frankly. For our team … Our team focuses on long for in depth investigative work, immersive journalism, storytelling tools that really amplify the real tell stories of mobile and the key with that is that not their dry patience whether it drives people to come back and we’re ruining it and they come back enough to eventually pull out their credit cards and subscribe to the globe.
We’re not going to win with each music clinking and we’re not going to win when 80% of the mobile revenue goes to Facebook and Google. We know that that is not our aim. Our aim is subscriptions as a private company so how do you invest. And it’s by producing good journalism That’s the overlap there at least at this point I time is actually quite strong so I’m happy with that. Its selfish journalistic point of view.
Erika: We see from the start perspective we used to have some digital subscription model which we no longer have so our purchasing is a little bit different and the way that it’s based off audience growth and new product development and the new products are the new ones that drive higher CPM and with that [inaudible 00:48:58] particular pieces of it.
Again, we’ve come collective largely and when we’re looking at what we want to do next in spaces that we want to play, generally break it up into two buckets. One it does have revenue opportunities for us either via through Facebook and some articles or something like that and evaluating what the benefit is to starve versus the monetization prospects. We also haven’t lost sight of just innovation and what can we then curve out in order to say, okay.
You may not stand to be financially successful playing in this particular space however it’s really important from a story telling perspective, it’s important for the audience, it’s important for our objectives in terms of growing our leadership to putting our content out there. It’s a daily balance between those 2 buckets and again we’re trying to look to additional product development in order to support that as well.
Frank: I think Canadian television for producers is just to be pertinent and intelligent. Stop doing what everyone is doing. I fore match to all because you’re going to watch it in the United States. There’s no point of producing and doing always, always the same thing and we must arrive with an alternative and you know have a compiling content and good content. With good content, I am confident that TV will still be there 10 years. May be we’ll get to watch it on a different platform. I don’t know what hold the future, but …
Nabil: I think also thinking about your content and as a flexible piece like Jeremy Boxer, of Vimeo told me don’t think if your series as 5 episodes. Think of it as 4 short stories times 5 is 20 mini episodes have many on subscription based, so you have to start thinking in different models as well. As you’re doing your long form or short form, see how they can fit on different menus.
Frank: Trust your content. When we developed Interrupt This Program, everyone told us that you’re never going to get a green light. We got the green light and when we weren’t working on the concept, we decided to add one Canadian character an episode that everyone was telling you, “You’re never going to go sell this elsewhere and a little if it, no one is interested in having a Canadian character.” We sold to the States and to Sweden. Trust your content, be pertinent and you’ll be there.
Elizabeth: Approach your story very innovative … You, like how you say it, it’s like it’s for artist. It’s our stories. It’s not necessarily those 22 minutes that we’re forced to box in. Both of those perspectives per platforms of creators are really pushing innovation. That’s how we’ll deal with that new business models. In the time that we have, I’d like to bring to the floor for questions, open up this conversation. Don’t all raise your hands at once. Yes. There’s a microphone right there.
Speaker 1: Hi, so I work in public relations and part of our job is to help brand create compelling stories and then talk to media. Ideally get those stories shared, so what can we do as PR reps when we email the media? Again, we’re talking about animations, videos and can you [Inaudible 00:52:35] if pre-write tweets? What can we do to make sure that when you get these compelling stories, they make more sense or you’re more likely to use them?
Matt: How would you … Make sure you’re doing your research and finding the right, very specific right person to target because [Inaudible 00:52:54] there are so many uses. I’m a probably better, from our point of view, finding all the pieces that they have attachments of mobile [Inaudible 00:53:00]. I’ve got all these yesterday from this technology firm that put together styling images of Fort McMurray before and after.
Right now, there’s third party talking press release to a particular group of people that are using that ad very, very timely effect and so, it’s a good that [Inaudible 00:53:29]. It’s more research I think on your part probably to find these particular people, but I think developing those relationships and conversations is probably the best way of going about it.
Elizabeth: Knowing the audience that you want to target, I would turn in and say, hiring the right story teller to make sure that the pitch that you’re offering is an authentic tittle of the story, even if it’s brand new, supporting content. Talk a lot about documentaries that are supported by brands and through the long form and short form and it even when the brands are not mentioned in this story. We see a lot of effort in the entire workshop we’re on today, great at that, fast forward, see more of that, this basically can explore, so good question. There’s one right next to you. Oh Rebecca. Thank you.
Rebecca: Hi. I’m really inspired by the stories that are coming out of the big press at the Globe and Mail, the CBC and Toronto Star. I live in a smaller community. I’m not seeing that kind of engagement at the local level. Our small papers are just very much sticking to the old fashion model. Every now and again, they might tweet something out, but there’s no community engagements at that levels, so what are some of the solutions for some of the smaller communities to get in to this level of engagement for where communities are.
Erika: That’s an interesting question. One, because I think our local communities have really been hit hard by what’s been happening throughout the industry. There’s probably a map out there somewhere that shows you where news outlets have disappeared over the period over the last 10 years and what communities are being under served by that and only now trying to understand the implication of that, so that’s one, but 2, those that remain, I think it’s a knowledge transfer.
It’s education. It’s getting those outlets to get up to speed, I guess you could say on really how uses evolving in the distribution of news is evolving. Unfortunately, I don’t know if there’s a really simple solution innovate that we’ve had. I think it has to start from within or it has to be asked for by that particular communities surrounding them. Certainly, from the Toronto Star’s perspective, we are meant to serve the GT as a whole and beyond.
I would say, even on a day to day basis, we struggle with that in the way that we’re conscious of the fact that we may not be getting our particular message out to say the Brampton’s or the Vons or over into catering and really not acknowledging their stories as well too. All these is said, I don’t think there’s an easy answer. However, if there’s some type of incentive or motive by art to incentivize the community in order to ask for more from those outlets and thinking out here at the beginning point here?
Matt: Sure. I thinking that the journalist at those areas elements [Inaudible 00:56:48] are really keen, so I was at a conference training session in [Inaudible 00:56:54] over the weekend. It a bunch of Atlantic papers, really small papers like they have 2 or 3 journalist at them. I was struck by the career journalist there in 25, 27 years in there. Shooting stuff on their phone. They just needed a little bit of extra training about how to produce a video with the phone. How to shoot a photo. How to get a little bit of audio and how to tweet. They’re just… They want to learn so badly. There’s not a resistance, it’s just an overwhelming what tools do I need? how do I do it. It’s actually the practical training that’s really needed.
Elizabeth: Resources in training. I agree. As you mentioned before opportunities for partnerships, seeing where communities can come together to create retro partnerships is another …
Erika: Yeah, absolutely.
Matt: People have… The BBC is coming up for renewal with their license with the community. There’s actually kind of approach among some community that the BBC should offer some of its technology to local media outlets because the big population is also have is… They don’t have content management systems or publishing systems that allowed them to do different story telling that going to in group, so in the case people are … If I’m paying X amount of money to BBC, should that technology then refer to me by seeing the [Inaudible 00:58:15] that they have, with the technology that they’re building also benefit on the smaller outlets. Just credible, interesting, fascinating argument. Because technology is such a big issue.
Erika: Good point.
Matt: Great question.
Elizabeth: Yeah. Moving to question over here.
Chuck: Hi. Chuck Deon. I was wondering if you could just sit back from the actually story and talk a little bit about how the overarching editorial is maintained. Your perspective? You made the point about the start being 100% high of all of the stories, but somebody actually [Inaudible 00:58:47] if somebody actually selects, I assume what goes first and when is the meaning of during the day or during in a period of time?
As more and more information comes at you, how does that process of filtering and deciding, “Okay? What’s going to be muddy? What’s going to [Inaudible 00:59:04] focus my resources on. Is that changing or is essentially the same
Erika: Interesting question. I would say that that what social media arguably the internet has done for publishes is that, it’s made us asking more aware of what the public would like us to cover so there’s less about … It’s changed our operation in the way that you arguably used to have about 10 people sitting around a table in actually literal close out the walls to the outside world versus now.
We’re seeing streams of information coming to us all day long, when we may say that in the morning and this is really what is happening and where it should be in placed versus at 5:00 at night. That’s completely changed, just given what’s the emerged in our communities and what’s … Where our emerging story is. What I would say as well is that … I’m sorry I’m lagging on that for on second.
That there is still the aspect of at least in particular to this jar. We have a very, very firm mandate and its foundation is in social justice and that comes out daily within every … However, whatever lenses we’re looking at and editorial files, so there are a number of those factors that come into consideration when we’re trying to set that editorial file in to place, but I think it’s only improved over the last number of years, with first party data, social media, a better understanding and knowledge of our body and also layers that over our firm mandate us to what we stand to serve and bring to this community.
Elizabeth: It’s a great fair response. Yes.
Speaker 1: You folks talked about packaging stories for different types, different mediums and so on. Are you also packing for different demographics? Like a story, would you have one refinement for more than an older audience and another refinement for the younger audience?
Matt: Interesting. Kind of implicit in the half of those I guess, but ….
Erika: Yeah. I would say … We have 3 distinct products at this time. We know the average is to consume us on those products. We also have our target demographic we’d like to achieve out for our writing proposes on those products and also for audience growth longevity on these products. We keep that information front of mind when we’re accessing story and when we’re looking on what’s covered and back to your question.
Is it practical for us or impossible for us to reject stories 3 times? No, so in some cases, a print audience might be under served by something that we’re targeting specifically for … We’re just naturally falls into play on a mobile first or have a social Snapchat type and get out coverage. That the goal is balanced, but this very, very difficult to achieve that, I would say.
Speaker 2: [Inaudible 01:02:28] target are specific to the audience if you wanted to. The analytics that we have tell us what the [Inaudible 01:02:39] demographic for a particular platform. We keep that in mind, but I think it’s just really goes back to it. What’s the best way of telling this story on this platform? Where people who use that as a tool assumption more than anything.
Elizabeth: Yeah, it’s interesting … An interesting part. I was trying to explain that’s Snapchat and they’re like, “If don’t know you’re too old to use it,” so I wouldn’t …
Matt: That’s not true. That’s not true?
Elizabeth: Really? I don’t know, but I think it’s an interesting point to understand that it’s really the prime that dictates the demographic and not necessarily the story.
Matt: Yeah, not necessarily. Even Snapchat really … Snapchat, they [Inaudible 01:03:20] Snapchat. Also journals is on Snapchat although that is not … Snapchat has a cool demographic, but also have cool demographic but they’ve seen that overlap. That when Snapchat wants their audience to be … To grow maybe older and most journalists wants to reach younger, business savvy. People are … Everybody is on Snapchat, so that’s …
Erika: I think you follow to start on Snapchat which I almost use, so we covered the Ghomeshi trials through Snapchat. We have a bunch of different series that were just getting our feet wet in and we do a fast Friday Car review every Friday. We have a beauty session every Thursday. Again, that’s the stuff that I put in that bucket of … We’re not here. There’s no revenue opportunities for Canadian publishers currently that’s is really been passed down for US publishers or nation publishers at this point, but for us to say, a story tellers that we don’t want to be in a highly visual, fun, interactive platform, we wouldn’t be doing our job at that point.
Matt: But it is a constant … Sorry, I just keep [Inaudible 01:04:27] point of view, in terms of like … Social journalist have 5 people who are on Snapchat. That’s their full time job to have, right? We don’t have that market, so they’re employing from … It’s hard to say that they’re [Inaudible 01:04:40] get a couple of hours to do something for Snapchat. That’s in other words …
Elizabeth: As a creative part, the creator of that content as well. You’re even dividing your parts out, even more to say, “Okay. If I view for Instagram, I view for Snapchat, may be for basically Twitter. What am I doing with this content to make sure it reaches all these different outlets?
Nabil: I’m looking at it from the assumption about the … The questions you guys like, is that … Because I’m just recently somebody told me that there’s a certain time of day where it’s the best time to post on Facebook or on Twitter or … You guys obviously look at that, in terms of when there’s a story we need to go out to get the most …
Erika: Yeah. We have a program that we use in order to schedule that, but it still requires a person sitting there and putting in to that program as well too. We certainly take advantage of all the data that we have to say we’re making the smartest decisions to align with current resources and staffing as well, but that helps.
It helps in a way that we never would be arguably be the most effective that we can be given that we’ve got that information coming in. For us, in particular, we know weekends are a huge opportunity. Our mobile and social as well as evenings and our mornings and maybe making some of that … Again, I think it was initial question and I don’t know if we actually talked about how journalism has changed till now.
Over the last 10 years that to me is a change in a huge advantage because previously in terms of even what’s the right we wanted to tell and how we wanted to tell them, you weren’t flying blind, but you were just making those decisions based off your gut and instinct. I think people always goes back to your gut during the day, 100% gut. However, there are all these other tools and information that we have at our figure tips that help inform being better at gut check.
Matt: Yeah. That’s a better around it and if I was to say is that, we help to get down and get rid of them. We do them in the café for a long time. It’s time that they pay attention to the young ones. They figure what the right balance is between gut and data and that’s what I’m trying to figure around.
Elizabeth: No, that’s the notion like you’re saying. Journalism hasn’t changed but the delivery method has and understanding how to figure out plus overall and to audiences is really empowering and similar with you take to the long form documentary or a series type of technical work is this thing, same space. Do we have another question or 2? No? Final thoughts to wrap this up. We’ve got just another minute so in the session before lunch.
What’s your best advice for audiences in this space in terms of how do we engage with you? How do we work with you? You were saying earlier before that it’s the audience don’t necessarily dictate. They take what they want, but when you change something, that when everyone ends up worrying, “Wait, I love that. Bring it back. I miss it.” As a consumer, what do you want to tell our audiences?
Erika: Maybe just starting off on that point, we are here. Our foundation of what order and publishers do is to create a dialogue in community. Yes, we might … Have an office space over here. However, we are accessible and I think it’s always on us as well to show how accessible we are and how we would like to give that dialogue so that we’re proactivity and collaboratively making decision with our audience in leaderships versus us. I think they give this happen before us talking something away and then having it revolt and having an after effects. I know from on the Toronto Star side, we do surveys. We had advisory panels. We do ask for people to join us in those conversations and so that passion and act of readers, I hope they would take us on that call. If you wanted to …
Nabil: One thing is … This morning they were talking about keeping the audience at the center of the conversation. To me, it’s just about catering to that illusive millennial audience. It’s like making them part of the dialogue. Like for us, we work with seasoned order professionals. We know we’re in our 40s, but we also work with 20 years olds who are researchers and directors.
It’s that dialogue that you need to bring them into the conversation so that you create something more pertinent at the end of the say. I think it’s about … Yes, it’s about new approaches but it’s also about experience. We come from a television world, but the television world has been a big school for me in terms of how to tell story and in its most impactful way.
Frank: I would like to say to the audience of television, is please don’t give up on us. Please don’t give up on us. We’re changing. We’re going to be there and I think we’re getting better
Elizabeth: I agree. They ask for it. You want to ask for curations. They asked me discoverability. They asked me directed to … What it feels like is really having this conversation is deposit one is that platforms are understanding better how to connect with that them. Create that … [Inaudible 01:10:04] creators are discovering how to reach them and curators are understanding that space as well. As these different medium intersects, its nice hat we keep stories core and we’re part to get the delivery to our audiences.
This has been a dynamic conversation. Thank you all so much to Nabil and Frank from CBC’s Interrupt This Program and to Matt from the Globe and Mail and Erika from the Toronto Star. Thank you all so much.